A Life-Changing Conversation with Michael Coles

Former CEO of Caribou Coffee AND the cofounder of The Great American Cookie Company chats with us about the ups and downs of business and how to truly get a raise. 

Michael is nothing short of impressive and grew an $8,000 investment into the largest cookie franchise in the United States. He's a philanthropist, the namesake of the Coles College of Business at Kennesaw State University, and gives us some amazing insight into his time as former chairman of the Georgia Film Commission. 

This is one you don't want to miss. 

So good, in fact, here's a little sneak peek ... 

“I had ever seen a Rolex in real life, and he was wearing one. And so, as the plane was landing, I said, what advice can you give a young guy like me that's about to set off into the business world? And he said….”  

Listen now for more ... :) 

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Transcript

Michael: 0:00

And I was sitting next to a guy, who in today's world would probably be on a private plane. I probably never would have met this guy. But I knew he was a very successful guy because it was the first time, I had ever seen a Rolex in real life, and he was wearing one. And so, as the plane was landing, I said, what advice can you give a young guy like me that's about to set off into the business world? And he said, take risks, take them as young as you possibly can be because the older you get, the more complicated your life's going to get, and taking risks becomes more and more difficult.

Amanda: 0:44

Welcome to the raise up podcast. I'm your host Amanda LeFever, and I'm so glad you are here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in each and every week. I really appreciate all the love and support, and I hope you are getting as much from these amazing interviews as I am. We have an extra special guest this week and I know you are going to love him. My new friend Michael Coles. Michael is an Atlanta business executive, serial entrepreneur and philanthropist who founded The Great American Cookie Company. I love this story and can't wait to dive in more, he did it with an$8,000 investment and he grew it into the largest cookie franchise in the U.S. He's the former CEO of Caribou Coffee where he doubled the size of the company and took it public on NASDAQ. He also helps a lot of people. He's the namesake of the Coles College of Business at Kennesaw State University and was the former chair of the Georgia Film Commission. Plus, he contributes his time, talent, and treasure to a lot of other non-profit organizations. Michael, thank you. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Michael: 1:52

Amanda, it's great to be with you. I've been really looking forward to having this conversation with you and so, let's do it.

Amanda: 1:59

I'm ready. Let's do it. I'm really excited and I'm sorry for the long introduction, but I just couldn't leave anything out. I read about some world records in three transcontinental bike races as well. Will you tell us a little bit about that?

Michael: 2:15

Well, I like a lot of people, I had not ridden a bike since I had been a kid, but six weeks after we started The Cookie Company, I was involved in a near fatal motorcycle accident and I was basically told by doctors I'd never walk again unaided. And so, I wound up using the bike, as part of my rehab. It was kind of a self-style rehabilitation program and like a lot of things in my life as I started getting more flexibility in my legs, I started riding longer and longer distances. As I said, like most things in my life, I got a little carried away. And so, I originally road from Savannah, Georgia to San Diego, California. The idea was to use that ride or race, to set an example for people that you just can't give up. You can't quit. I felt very lucky that I had had the tenacity, to go ahead and do what d octors said would not be possible. And so, I wanted to set an example. And then in'82 when I set this record, I knew it wasn't my best effort. And so, I set out in'83, to attempt to break my record and, I wound up crashing less than 500 miles from San Diego. I w ould h ave broken my record by over a week. I had just great weather conditions. And so, in 1984 I set out one more time to break my record. This time I had the worst weather possible across the country. If you ride a bike, you know that you can deal with rain, we d eal with cold, you can deal with just about anything except headwinds. And I had 30 mile an hour headwinds from Savannah all the way up to 70 mile an hour headwinds in California. I did manage to get across the country in'84 and broke my record by over four days. Across the country,11 days, eight hours, 15 minutes. And then in 1989 I joined a four-man team to do the race across America, which went from LA to New York. We won the race across America. We went 3000 miles in five days, one hour, eight minutes. It's the fastest crossing of America ever by a four-man team. And it's the fastest 3000 miles ever covered under human power. And I'm proud to be with all your folks today t o s ay t hat both records still s tand.

Amanda: 4:52

That's amazing and such an inspiring story too, that you were able to do what you did and just continue to push forward.

Michael: 5:02

Well, and at the same time, we're still building The Cookie Company. The other thing I'll just mention if anybody's interested, there is a documentary that was done on my'84 crossing, which is available on YouTube. All they have to do is type in Michael Cole's bicycle, and it'll show up. It was a documentary that was done, it was on NBC.

Amanda: 5:25

That's awesome. I'll put that in the show notes for sure, for everybody that, so they can go check that out. I'm going to go check that out. Actually, my dad is a bike rider. He's always rode bikes my whole life and so I just think it's super impressive.

Michael: 5:40

Well, one of the things that happened, I don't know if this'll be in the show or not, but one of the things that happened when I was still on a walker and trying to get movement back into my legs, I watched a television show called the Rocky Bleier story. Rocky Bleier is a former running back for the Pittsburgh Steelers and was injured in Vietnam to the point where they told him he'd never walk again, let alone run with the football. And he wound up playing on I believe, four Super Bowl championship teams. And he, when the documentary was done, they asked me who I'd like to narrate it. And of course, that's the first name that came up was Rocky Bleier and it turned out he did narrate it and he and I, wound up becoming really good friends.

Amanda: 6:30

That's so cool. Oh my gosh. Okay. Wow. I'll put that in there too. The Rocky Bleiers. You said that's a story as well. Is it a video? A documentary?

Michael: 6:41

It was a made for TV movie and he's a really nice guy. But anyway, yeah. So, he narrates the entire documentary. Good guy.

Amanda: 6:55

That's awesome. So, I can't believe that you were doing all of this while you were actually building a company, and I saw, where you tell this story about being on a plane sitting next to a successful businessman and he gave you some advice about taking career risks he had said, don't be afraid to take risks and don't be afraid to fail, failure and success run hand in hand. Can you tell me more about that? Do you feel like that still is something that's relevant today?

Michael: 7:26

Well, what happened was I was 22. I won a big sales contest for the company I was working with. My company flew me back first class. I had never f lown first class before, and I was sitting next to a guy who in today's world would probably be on a private plane. I probably never wo uld h a ve m et this guy. But I knew he was a very successful guy because it w a s f irst time, I h a d e ver seen a Rolex in real life, and he was wearing one. And so, as the plane was landing, I said, what advice can yo u g ive a young guy like me that's about to set off into the business world? And he said, take risks, take them as young as you possibly can be. Because the older you get, the more complicated your life's going to get. And taking risks becomes more and more difficult. So, I have given that advice to literally thousands and thousands of people I mentor by the way right now, several millennials. And I have to tell you, I think millennials get a really bad rap because the millennials that I get, that I've been involved with, I'm not sure who's learning more from home. I love listening, and talking to them about what they're working on because generally their thinking is very different than the way I started out because we didn't have the internet. We didn't have that internet thing. And, with younger people today have really literally grown up with the internet when they're thinking about business or whatever. Whatever they're doing in their life, they don't think about it as boxed in. As you know, older people like myself, when we start out, like when I started The Cookie Company, it was pretty typical. We found a location, four walls. You built out a store, you did it in a mall and you hope that people would come. If I were doing the company today would be completely different when you definitely want a store. But the way a millennial would think about it or the way most people today who are in business better start thinking about it because you got to think more globally, how do you reach all the people that might enjoy whatever it is you're doing? That might buy whatever it is you're trying to do in a very different way. So, I think the one thing I've seen with millennials is that they've taken all the barriers off when they're thinking about how they're going to go about their business. And so, I think that advice is still pertinent because a millennial, if they're fortunate, we'll get older and their lives are going to get more complicated. And so, again, there's nothing wrong with taking risks, just remembering that failure does run hand in hand with success. But you know, there's a great amateur golfer, whose name is Bobby Jones, who is an Atlanta golfer who had a great saying, he's the greatest amateur golfer that has ever lived. And he said, I never learned anything from a golf tournament I ever won. And I think that that's the one thing that's important for people to always remember, that when you're successful at something, generally, you don't take a lot of knowledge from it, because it went along the way you expected. I think that when things don't go the way you want, that's when you really can learn something. And one of the things I've often said is that the difference between success and failure is dealing with the unexpected. And that's, how people wind up really succeeding is high, because being an entrepreneur is not about getting knocked down, it's about staying down and it's about continuing to get up and learn and move on. Th at w a s a long answer.

Amanda: 11:14

No, that was fantastic. And there are so many, I have so many questions swirling. So, how do you deal with the unexpected? I know that you've taken a lot of risks in your life, and it seems like it's been rewarding. What is something that you would say to someone right now that is, dealing with an awful boss or terrible leadership at their company or you know, they're trying to move up, and they're pushing, pushing forward and striving for more, but they keep hitting like these barriers?

Michael: 11:46

Well, first of all, I think that you got to find the right fit, and you've got to feel appreciated with whatever you do. And look, I started out in a world where I had a right, really my first mentor and real boss, a guy named Irving Sattler was probably the toughest guy I ever worked for. And, but at the same time I knew my work was being appreciated. I will say that he was not the most generous guy in the world. And I would also say that when I needed more money, he was not forthcoming necessarily with saying, hey, here's more money. You're doing a great job. But, but one thing he did do, which I felt very respected in what I was doing even as a kid starting out at 13. Even, when I worked for him until I was 19. But I always felt respected. I always felt appreciated. And I think if anybody is in a position at a job, and I know the jobs, sometimes you just have to stay in a job because you just need the money or whatever it might be. But the easiest time to find a job is when you have a job. People should always remember that, because when people are being interviewed, they liked to interview people who in fact have a job. But if you're not feeling appreciated and it's not about money necessarily, and you probably need to go someplace where you feel you will be appreciated. You know, Irving had a great expression. I once asked him why he had become an entrepreneur and he said that he had always been able to find a job and people always wanted to pay him what he was worth. And he said, I wouldn't work for that little. And so he said, I had to kind of go on my own path. And in many ways for me, it was similar in some ways because I didn't have a college education. I never went to college. And so, when I was starting out, that could be a roadblock into getting into a place that you wanted to go. And so, I became a risk taker pretty early on. And in Irving's words, because I wanted to make sure that I felt I was being paid what I was worth. And I think that's what people have to believe. I mean, if you're in a position where you're not feeling appreciated, and not getting the kind of compensation that you think you're deserving. If you go to someone and they don't agree, then I think it's time to move on to something else. A nd again, i t goes back to that whole risk thing. Y eah. It's a risk to take another position. But on the other hand you can't stay where you're u nhappy, you just can't do it.

Amanda: 14:30

Yeah. Like that should be the first red flag almost, that it's time to move to somewhere else.

Michael: 14:36

I always used to tell people that would work with me, that if you have to come and ask me for a raise, you probably need to go someplace else.

Amanda: 14:47

I've never heard that before because we've been talking a lot lately about communication. And so, have you ever been surprised by someone asking you for raise?

Michael: 14:58

Oh sure. Yeah. And I'd say that probably was more true when I was dealing with a smaller business. You know, as businesses got bigger, sometimes you don't have that personal touch where you realize, my gosh, I should really be doing something more for this person. But I have had a number of situations where someone did come to me and felt like they needed more compensation. And I basically sat down and said, you know, if you have to come to me and ask me for a raise, you probably ought to sit down with me and find out what it is that you're doing that has not caused me to want to give you that raise. And so, it can become a great good teaching moment as well with people that work with you. The other thing I would say is this, is that if you're in a position of leadership, it doesn't have to be, you don't have to be the CEO. But if you're in fact having to work with people who have to report to you, the one thing people should always remember is that the words of the person that's leading you, whatever comes out of your mouth is not necessarily being heard the way you intend. I've had meetings where I thought the meeting went great, and then the person left my office, and went home for the day because they were so upset and I thought it was a great.

Amanda: 16:22

Oh no.

Michael: 16:23

And so, sometimes it's just communication is a big part of working with folks. And I think sometimes you get it right, and sometimes you just don't. I mean it's a bunch of great stories in my book, that I kept was published about a year and a half ago. The book is full of stories of things that went wrong more than things that went right. Because, as I've said earlier, I mean, I think the things that don't go the way you expect are the great teaching moments that you have in both your business and in your life, your personal life. My book is a lot about business, but it's more about living life, on both sides, whatever you do for your career or whatever you do in your personal life. And so, it's definitely, learning to both, express how you feel with people, but also listening to people, you know. And, anyway I went off there.

Amanda: 17:28

No, no, you're fantastic. So, I have your book. It's time to get tough, Michael Cole's book, and I've started reading it and I absolutely love it. You're a great storyteller, and you've had a very interesting life. And you say that you're mentoring some people right now. What are some of the challenges that they're facing, and some of the advice that you've been giving you feel like?

Michael: 17:53

Well, I've mentored a number of people over the years to the point where some of them, it's been 20 years. Generally, it's how to get more funding, which is probably the most common thing or trying to network, trying to teach them about networking. The biggest thing for me has been talking to people that I started out mentoring and then make talking to them about becoming mentors. Because now that they've kind of found their way, they need to give something back, and to help other young people, younger people. And that, by the way, that's not necessarily young people. I'm talking about people that may be just young to whatever it is they're doing. I literally right now am mentoring four people from 22 to 54, and the 54 year old is someone who at 50, decided to make the complete change in their life. Now that's a person that also needs help in kind of giving them direction. And, the one thing I get, think probably more than anything, I try to do with people that I'm trying to help is to just get them to focus on what's really important. And, especially in the world today where you do have the internet and this ability to think about things on a more global basis, you still have to get back to what is the value proposition of what you're doing, and not get so caught up in all these peripheral things that you might possibly be able to do. And, but focus on the main thing that you're trying to accomplish. I know the cookie business seems really simple. I was in the coffee, Caribou Coffee. I've been in the banking business, running the film commission. In the book I talk about the story about how we took Georgia from, at one point where it was one of the top five places in the United States to produce full length films as well as commercials and music videos and all that. When I got there, Georgia was probably 10 or 12 in the country and we were doing about 180 million in economic impact, which may sound like a lot, but it's not when you're talking about economic impact. And when I sat down with the executive director, I was the lay leader, I wasn't getting paid, but this is like the paid person that was running the film commission. And he sat down with me and started talking to me about, how we could do more business. And he started saying, you know how other States had studios, editing facilities, tax incentives. He went down this whole list of all the things that we didn't have in Georgia. And so, he said, I'm trying to figure how we can bring this business back. And I said to him, you're asking the wrong question. I said, you're asking how to do more business if we don't have all these things, why does anybody come here and do a business with us at all? I said, because until we figure out why people come, we can't figure out how to bring more. And so, we started a process of putting together this incredible board of people who all touched the industry. To make a long story short, in the four years that I ran the film commission with this incredible board, we took it from 180 million to over a billion in four years. And today Georgia is 12 and a half billion. Wow. And the number and the number one producer of full-length motion picture films in the world.

Amanda: 21:57

That's amazing. I had no idea.

Michael: 22:00

Yeah. So again, it was focusing on the core of what drove people to the state and then building off of that. And you can't go from, well maybe some can, but I've never figured out how to go from the outside in. You got to kind of go from that inside out to build that.

Amanda: 22:22

So people that are working in corporate America, is that kind of a good strategy for them as well? Like focus on what is working here and expand out there?

Michael: 22:34

I think it is. I mean I think a lot of people who, people can be easily distracted, and that does not mean that you don't look at how to do things differently or try something different than new. But at some point, if things are not working the way you want, you kind of just say, okay, that's not going to work but, at the same time you're trying to do it. I think you've also got to continue to build on the strength of whatever it is your working. Let that be the core that holds you up. I mean, if I were in the cookie business, or coffee, we business never came out with a different cup of coffee or a different cookie or a different brownie or whatever it might have done. We probably would have been a five-year wonder. That would have been the end of business. So, you experiment with something. We had plenty of stuff that failed. Plenty of stuff that didn't work, and you learn from them, and try to figure out why they didn't work and then maybe create a new product or a process that will allow you to go into a different area. One of the things that I think that people can lose track of, especially, let's say you are successful at a new product or a new process. It's not like you're living in some vacuum where your competitor is not looking to see what you're doing. And if they find that you're doing something that's really different, I guess what we would say, something disruptive. Something in an industry or a product, whatever it might be, that's disruptive. Remember your competitor, that's going to be their starting point, right? Whatever you've done, that's so great. It's like, I got asked the question recently at a University, they said, what industries do you think are still prime to be disrupted? And I said anything that was disruptive five years ago probably could also be now disruptive. Just look at how they're doing that, figure out a way to do it better.

Amanda: 24:46

Yeah. Because you can just improve on what they've already done. They've gone through all their failures and the learning since. So, you can move to that place. You had said earlier that, there were two things the funding and then the networking that you talk to people about the most. We haven't really touched on networking very often in the show, but I feel like it is extremely important in people's lives. What do you think as far as networking? How is it that you build a good network?

Michael: 25:20

Well, I think that this is probably one of my favorite subjects of all. Because I think that people make a big mistake in networking, a lot of people make a big mistake. They approach it with what can you do for me? And in networking it's got to be a two-way street. You've got to find, strategic relationships where you can benefit each other, and if not, it won't go forward. At some point, that the person that you're trying to network with is going to just feel like, this is really kind of a waste of my time. But it's no different than when you're selling something that somebody wants or somebody needs, they're going to buy that from you because obviously there's a benefit to them. Networking is selling. I mean, that's what it really is. And so, if you're selling yourself or selling your business or whatever the relationship is, and what you're trying to get is to an expansion of that, to find someone that can help you move into different areas. While at the same time, you need to be asking the questions, how can I help you? I mean, are there places that you're looking to move into, that maybe I could be of some service to you. But I see people going to these networking things and basically, it's me, me, me, and it's just not going to work. You might get a phone number and you might even get a coffee. But to get it beyond that, it's about, it's about relationships. I mean networking is no different than any other kind of a relationship. It's got to work both ways.

Amanda: 27:11

So what about in this day and age where we've moved so much to technology and it's less about the in person relationship building? What do you think? What do you think that's good or you think it's bad that we're less connected?

Michael: 27:29

Well, with what has been going on right now, we're probably the least connected we've ever been, with COVID-19. Look, I still believe there's the human factor of interacting and actually getting together with people. I would hope that we never get away from that. I mean, even people I talk to now that are doing a lot of their business to resume or, whatever type of video communication we're now using just like we are right now. But there is still something, there's still something different than that human touch. I can say this, I do a lot of public speaking and I've done many podcasts and I've done big webinars. You know, where you've got 3, 4, 5, 10,000 people listening. It's not the same as standing in front of an audience.

Amanda: 28:33

That's true.

Michael: 28:34

It's just not the same of getting that emotional feedback that you could feel the expressions on people's faces, in looking at them, and all those other interactions. I think, I hope we never move away from that, and I don't think we are. I mean this, if you see before all this happened, people were still going to meetings, people were still going to coffees. I mean, Caribou Coffee would not survive. A Starbucks would not survive if it wasn't for those personal kind of meetings that are happening. But there's no doubt that you've got to have a different set of skills today. And learning how to communicate through this type of communication is probably easier for people who've grown up with it, than it is for people that have not. But on the other hand, here's the way I would relate to this. I am sure that when the telephone was invented, people said that is the end of human communication. That's it. That's it, we're done. People are never going to want to go see each other anymore, they don't have any reason to. I think this is just the beginning of a new way of communicating, and it's just an add on and it's not. It's just like talking on a cell phone. I mean that, that's probably more that people can relate to. I mean the fact is that it hasn't been around that long. And I'm sure when that first happened, people started thinking, well that's the end of human interaction. And I know that when I sit in a car with, today would be my grandchildren, and they're sitting in the back seat. They're not even talking to each other, they're texting each other in the backseat. And I know why they're doing it because they don't want me to know what they're talking about. But, the thing of it is, is that everyone's afraid that that's the end of socialization with young, that younger, it's not, it's just different.

Amanda: 30:42

Yeah, I agree with you. So, it seems like the strategy though is to continue to communicate, kind of navigate this period of time that we're in, but to always keep in mind like what is the, what can I do for them? How can I help them type of situation? Instead of always thinking about what's in it for me type of thing.

Michael: 31:08

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I hate the expression win-win, but it really is a win-win. I mean, people have to feel that they're really getting something. My son, as an example, has a company that helps companies manage strategic relationships. And when he first told me what he was doing, he's very successful at it. I thought to myself, why does a company need that? I mean, it's like, why do they have to hire? I can understand that maybe having somebody internally, why do they need an external person? And the point he made was that if you're on the inside of a company, it's hard for you to see how you're not giving more than the other side is getting, that you're getting from them. And that that's why they need someone to help manage it. It's like why do married people go to counselors, for me, to meet some person to help them manage through a personal issue. Business relationships are no different. So, somebody has to feel that they're both important to the relationship. And I think that's where networking, again, that's where people I think fail, where they don't get the understanding of what they each bring and why together they're better.

Amanda: 32:31

I like that. So, we typically ask people to share their best story about, like their war story, getting a raise or asking for a raise. It doesn't have to be you specifically, but do you have any awkward, funny, interesting stories about when somebody was trying to get a raise?

Michael: 32:52

Oh yeah. Actually I have a great story, the best story.

Amanda: 32:55

Excellent, wow, you're so good.

Michael: 32:57

Yeah. And the story, actually, it's in the book. So, after I won that sales contest that I talked about earlier, and after I flew home with that great guy who gave me the great advice. My territory where I was a salesman on the road, and my territory was Western Michigan, and which i ncluded from, so let's say you know Michigan. It was everything but the thumb of Michigan. So, Detroit was a part of the thumb, and this is back in the heyday of Michigan by the way, in the heyday of Detroit. And so, I had won this sales contest. I was doing more business in Western Michigan th an t he guy who had all of the th umb o f Michigan. And he had just opened a big account, they cr ack t his big account and such a big account that, in fact, it was going to be his only territory. It was just this one account. And so, the thumb, or Detroit opened up, and I called my boss up after th is s ales contest. And I said, I was 22, and I said, I want to take that territory. I want that territory in Detroit. And I said, but I want the whole state. And I said, what I'll do is I'll hire someone to work for me in Western Michigan, take over my territory and I'll move to Detroit and I'll take over Detroit, and I'll supervise to make sure we continue to build wh at I built in Western Michigan. And my boss was a guy named Bob Lo ris. Ha ve y o u j ust started laughing? Literally, just st art l aughing, and he said to me, he s aid, kid, he said, you're not ready for Detroit. He said, they'd laugh at you, because I was 22 and I probably looked 12, he said, you'll walk into one of these big department stores and they won't even see you. He said, slow do wn, sl ow d own, you're not ready yet. And I said, I really want the territory, I want it laid out exactly as I said. And if you don't give me the territory, I'm telling you now, in January, because this was September, I said in January I'm leaving, I'm going to go take a different job. And he said, you're not goi ng to le ave, you just started making money. You know you're doing really well, you're not. I said, Bob, I'm telling you now, if you don't give me the territory, I'm leaving. He said okay. Any way, m ake a long story short. I never got the interview with him. He hired somebody else, and in December I called them up on the phone because they had sent me the samples for the new line that we were goi ng to start selling in January. And I called them up and asked them what to do with them. I said, why did they send this to me? And he said, well what do you mean? And I said, well, I'm leaving in January. And he said, what do you mean you're leaving? I said, I told you, if you didn't give me the territory I was goi ng to le ave. And he said, don't go anywhere. So, he go t on a plane and fl e w in. The bottom line was that he didn't give me what I wanted. I took the advice from the guy on the plane, and basically just decided, this is why I had to take the ris k. I quit. I quit the te rritory. I m o v ed to Detroit with another company, and to say that it was a successful move, would be an understatement. And plu s, b ecause, at 23, I cracked every major department store retailer in Michigan, and wound up having three people working for me in the state. Every time one of my retailers ran a full page ad of what we were selling, I sent a c o py of it to my old boss.

Amanda: 36:59

No, you did not?

Michael: 37:02

I did. We stayed the greatest friends until he passed away just a few years ago. And he wound up becoming president of the company I was working for. And in an interview, they asked, and this is years after I was no longer working for him. I was probably now in the cookie business. They said to him, Bob, you've had a great road to success, you started in the carnival business, and you wound up in the clothing business, and you wound up becoming president of the company you went to work as a salesman. He said, have you made any mistakes along the way? And he said, yeah, I didn't promote Michael Cole to Detroit.

Amanda: 37:43

No way, that's amazing.

Michael: 37:46

Yeah, So that's the story about trying to get a raise.

Amanda: 37:54

That is incredible, and I don't think that we could end on a better story at all. I can't believe that worked out like that. That's amazing. So, I know that you have this book, and all of these amazing stories, and where can people find the book? How can they get their hands on this?

Michael: 38:12

Okay, so it is available both on a hard card copy and Kindle on Amazon. And it's at a number of local bookstores as well, love to promote local bookstores. And, then my website, which you're on right now under construction, also is available for folks, got the video, and it will have the documentary on it. Hopefully, it's going to be up in another week, but we just took it down and completely rebuilding it. So, Amazon is a great way, and like I said, the documentary is available on YouTube.

Amanda: 38:46

Okay, I'll make sure that I link all of that stuff in the show notes, and Michael, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Michael: 38:54

Man, this has been real fun.

Amanda: 38:54

It's been so fun. It's been a real pleasure, and you are super inspiring, and it's incredible your journey, and that raise story is by far one of the best. Don't tell anybody else, but that is definitely the best that I've heard so far.

Michael: 39:08

Alright, well stay in touch.

Amanda: 39:11

Okay. Take care. Hey, thanks so much for listening today. If you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe, you can share it with your friends, and you can click the share button, take a screenshot, and share it on your social stories, and then tag me, at Amanda LeFever. Thanks again for listening. I will talk to you guys soon.